TASSY P2P FORUMS

Very interesting:

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Teala/112007/715_SOE-Why-They-Will-Never-Be-Top-Dog-Again[/quote]

Heh... yeah. Interesting. How many times can one blogger repeat the phrase, "SOE didn't listen to their player base"?

Yeah, it's true SOE didn't listen to their player base while they were working on the NGE. But that misses the point completely. That's like saying John Wayn Gacy did what he did because he didn't listen to the screams of his victims as he was murdering them.

What SOE did was make a piece of crap. True, they added error on top of error by cramming the piece of crap down their loyal subscribers' throats. But if the NGE had in fact been a great game, the cramming would have been the most welcomed event in the history of compuer RPGs. And so, we come back to the simple, fundamental REALITY: SOE choked. They laid an egg. They coughed up a loogie.

It's that simple.

It's already been said by others. Sure it's true, but I doubt saying it again will give us our game back.

Anach wrote:It's already been said by others. Sure it's true, but I doubt saying it again will give us our game back.

Me, too. About the only real hope I have is if BioWare and LucasArts pull a rabbit out of their hats and give us a great Star Wars MMORPG that's NOT level-based.

Iakimo wrote:

Anach wrote:It's already been said by others. Sure it's true, but I doubt saying it again will give us our game back.

Me, too. About the only real hope I have is if BioWare and LucasArts pull a rabbit out of their hats and give us a great Star Wars MMORPG that's NOT level-based.

Well KOTOR and NWN were level based, and the game AI was levelled to match you. They used the d20 system, but on the outside it wasnt something you were particularly conscious of. You knew you were gaining levels, but it was more about gaining abilities than suddenly being able to use a certain level weapons like SWG.

Who knows if their RPGs will have any influence on their MMO, other than hopefully a good story, great level design and fantastic art.

That article is filled with innacuracies and missing vital information. Sounds like yet another piece of anti-SOE propaganda.

SOE are not the appropriate place to point fingers at for the NGE. That "honour" belongs to Lucas Arts.

Lucas Arts call the shots when it comes to Star Wars and Lucas Arts were the ones who pulled the rug out from under us. Lucas Arts hold the rights to the Pre-CU and CU code and it is Lucas Arts who prevent SOE from performing the /rollback or the Pre-NGE servers that most of us want.

I really hope that the rumoured KOTOR MMO is as good as we all hope and I really hope that SOE's Dev Team can unravel the NGE and give us a consistently good game again. Either will do for me.

Iakimo wrote:

Anach wrote:It's already been said by others. Sure it's true, but I doubt saying it again will give us our game back.

Me, too. About the only real hope I have is if BioWare and LucasArts pull a rabbit out of their hats and give us a great Star Wars MMORPG that's NOT level-based.

Bioware's best games have been "level-based". I don't mind levels in a game as long as I have further customisation available to me. What is it that you don't like about level-based games?

Levels worked in KOTOR only because content you'd done at lower levels was no longer available for replay. If you went back to Dantooine, for example, the creatures you'd killed didn't respawn. Once you cleared a zone and explored all its story elements, the content was gone. And so you moved from one area to the next.

Not so SWG. Or any other MMORPG.

In the old SWG, we could go to all the planets and find ourselves fighting mobs everywhere that could (theoretically) kill us. Even the trash mobs outside Mos Eisley could at least hurt us if we went out there without our armor. Granted, a composite-clad Master Whatever armed with elite weaponry had little to fear from them, and several professions had enough innate defensive skills built in that they could take on some pretty tough mobs without wearing armor, but the old unilevel skillset-based system felt much more cohesive. I could go to Lok, or Dantooine, or Naboo, or Rori or wherever, and enjoy the same consistent game wherever I went.

In level-based MMORPGs, the only place where you feel like you're actually playing the game is when you are in the zone that's the "right" level for your toon at the time. If I were a level-35 Orc in World of Warcraft, for example, I felt tied to Stranglethorn Vale, or the Badlands. If I ventured back to the Silverpine Forest, the mobs were trivial kills that gave no more XP. If I ventured into the Hinterlands or the Searing Gorge, I'd die instantly. And it's all a function of level-based damage multipliers. It's a heavy-handed method for channeling players into prescribed areas of gameplay. It can be fun (if you have sufficient content in each of the zones), but I am by nature an explorer. Level-based zones make me feel like I'm exploring a postage stamp. It's like moving from one minigame to the next in succession -- NOT like you're exploring a virtual world.

I don't want to go to Lok and simply jet past mob after irrelevant mob. I don't want to go to the Warren and be able to simply waltz my way through the whole dungeon without a single aggro response. On the other hand, I don't want to go to a level-45 planet as a level-30 whatever and be slain in one shot simply because I wasn't the "right" level for the zone. I WANT MY GAME BACK!

--------------

Here's an excerpt I posted in the BioWare discussion boards:

THE EVILS OF CURRENT-GEN MMORPGS' LEVEL-BASED SCHEMES:
1. They break worlds up into level-driven checkerboards
2. They segregate and isolate the player base
3. Because of #2 above, the leveling process can become VERY lonely
4. Level-based environments have ZERO replay value for characters whose level has exceeded the zone. For example, how often (and why??) would a level-70 character ever set foot again inside World of WarCraft's Sunken Temple -- or even the Molten Core, for that matter?
5. Levels break the game up into multiple minigames that each have to be developed in full. The number of such minigames that have to be developed is roughly equal to the number of levels you choose to have in your game. Knock yourselves out, devs.
6. Level-based areas practically invite twinking, such as having a high-level guide escort a number of level-appropriate characters through a raid, in which the guide blows everything away with ease, including all those painstakingly-created boss fights.

And later, I added the following:
7. In current-gen MMORPGs, levels trump EVERYTHING: gear, combat modifiers, buffs, debuffs... EVERYTHING. I can take my level-70 Orc Hunter into Razorfen Kraul in WoW with him wearing nothing but a loincloth and wielding a stick bow, and one-shot every mob in the place, and never get a scratch. I never got around to seeing if he could solo the Molten Core, but the point remains.

I didn't feel segregated according to level in the CU or in Pre-CU. I didn't feel as though I was being moved from one mini-game to another either. SWG still felt like my "sandbox" until the NGE came along and replaced it with el cheapo toys. Over time those toys have been replaced by better ones and little by little I see my sandbox returning. Aaaaanyways, that's enough simile... back to the topic

Perhaps, it is because I am used to D&D, AD&D, D20 rules where levels were part of the game; I didn't mind the introduction of levels in SWG. We still had skills and the ability to customise our characters to match our own individual play-styles so I found it simple to adjust to the change. Although it's not my only wish, I do wish they had performed a thorough quality check to ensure that all areas and all mobs presented a challenge for the CU.

The NGE is another story.

The only MMO that made me feel in any way segregated was WoW. WoW was also linear and that does encourage the perception of isolation. I couldn't stand to play it for more than a couple of weeks.

Iakimo wrote:Levels worked in KOTOR only because content you'd done at lower levels was no longer available for replay. If you went back to Dantooine, for example, the creatures you'd killed didn't respawn. Once you cleared a zone and explored all its story elements, the content was gone. And so you moved from one area to the next.

I disagree. KOTOR was based on an established and carefully planned ruleset. It was also a single-player game and was designed to not respawn creatures once an area had been cleared or a quest completed.

When I read your list I thought... yep... that was my own experience of WoW. On the matter of levels alone, my personal experience is that the other MMOs I have played for a period of time exceeding two weeks were not negatively affected by levels. At least not in my experience.

But then again... whether you have levels or whether you have skill-based progression... there really are players who want to increase their skills/levels in an area tailored for where they are. I think it's reasonable for an MMO maker to provide that for those kinds of players.

Iakimo wrote:4. Level-based environments have ZERO replay value for characters whose level has exceeded the zone. For example, how often (and why??) would a level-70 character ever set foot again inside World of WarCraft's Sunken Temple -- or even the Molten Core, for that matter?.

Quite often, to boost a lower level friend through it, or to farm it for lower level blues/purplez to sell for cash.
Yeah...that's what I used to do Probably will again too, as I got given a free EU wow key the other day, and playing that for the 30 free days...after that I'll probably quit again haha

asharin wrote:

Iakimo wrote:4. Level-based environments have ZERO replay value for characters whose level has exceeded the zone. For example, how often (and why??) would a level-70 character ever set foot again inside World of WarCraft's Sunken Temple -- or even the Molten Core, for that matter?.

Quite often, to boost a lower level friend through it, or to farm it for lower level blues/purplez to sell for cash.
Yeah...that's what I used to do Probably will again too...

LOL... which I addressed in Point #6:

6. Level-based areas practically invite twinking, such as having a high-level guide escort a number of level-appropriate characters through a raid, in which the guide blows everything away with ease, including all those painstakingly-created boss fights.

(/evilgrin)

Iakimo wrote:6. Level-based areas practically invite twinking, such as having a high-level guide escort a number of level-appropriate characters through a raid, in which the guide blows everything away with ease, including all those painstakingly-created boss fights.

(/evilgrin)

Yes.... in WoW. A game notorious for requiring the best gear and a crazy amount of real time in order to perform well.

I just don't see your argument here. Levels are not in essence bad, or wrong, or even game-breaking. Levels do not hatch dastardly plans to "invite twinking" or power levelling or any other negative aspect of gaming. They do provide a clear and measurable structure to chart ones progress and they help you work out if the mob is a challenge worth your time or not. Structure is not the same thing as restrictive linear game-play which is the kind that I personally dislike. Structure is okay Levels are okay

If the experience of catching sight of "30" over a player or creature's head or HAM bar is jarring then why not put the time in to learn how to craft a UI mod which actually hides that number?

That is what I would do and there are a large number of game modders out there who would be willing to help you learn or possibly mod it for you.

gelfling wrote:

Iakimo wrote:6. Level-based areas practically invite twinking, such as having a high-level guide escort a number of level-appropriate characters through a raid, in which the guide blows everything away with ease, including all those painstakingly-created boss fights.

(/evilgrin)

Yes.... in WoW. A game notorious for requiring the best gear and a crazy amount of real time in order to perform well.

I just don't see your argument here. Levels are not in essence bad, or wrong, or even game-breaking. Levels do not hatch dastardly plans to "invite twinking" or power levelling or any other negative aspect of gaming. They do provide a clear and measurable structure to chart ones progress and they help you work out if the mob is a challenge worth your time or not. Structure is not the same thing as restrictive linear game-play which is the kind that I personally dislike. Structure is okay Levels are okay

If the experience of catching sight of "30" over a player or creature's head or HAM bar is jarring then why not put the time in to learn how to craft a UI mod which actually hides that number?

That is what I would do and there are a large number of game modders out there who would be willing to help you learn or possibly mod it for you.

The big problem isn't the numbers or the greyed "challenge level" display. The problem is the lack of drama associated with one-shot killing mobs that pose no danger whatsoever to my toon. A little bit of it can be fun -- I used to enjoy pulling out a LLC and blowing away the womp rats outside Mos Eisley for example, back in the pre-CU days. But it felt like more of a yardstick of my character's performance to do so, because if I pulled out a CDEF Rifle, I wouldn't get that same massive-damage result.

No so in a system with a level-based damage multiplier.

Similar level-based dynamics are built into LOTRO. And again, the replay value of places like Dol Dinen and Agamaur are greatly reduced for high-level toons. If this game were a pre-CU-style skillset-based system with no level-based multipliers, we could STILL be venturing into the Great Barrow as well as Carn Dum and the Rift. The SWG analogy would be the Squill Cave on Tatooine and the Avatar Platform.

The levels do "work" for games like LOTRO and WoW, but only because the devs have a reasonable amount of content at each level of their games. But I keep thinking about the amount of work lavished on places like the Sunken Temple (in WoW) or the Fornost instance (in LOTRO), and how quickly players leave them behind.

With skill based systems rather than Level based. We all get to use ALL the games content, from creature spawns, weapons and other levelled items. Which means a lot more content for everyone, without having to add it.

Now with a level based game, we can only use those weapons and items made for our level, otherwise we'll be shooting ourselves in the foot. We also need to find specific spawns in specific areas if we wish to level up or have a challenge.

Iakimo wrote:The problem is the lack of drama associated with one-shot killing mobs that pose no danger whatsoever to my toon. A little bit of it can be fun -- I used to enjoy pulling out a LLC and blowing away the womp rats outside Mos Eisley for example, back in the pre-CU days. But it felt like more of a yardstick of my character's performance to do so, because if I pulled out a CDEF Rifle, I wouldn't get that same massive-damage result.

Thanks Iakimo That was an explanation that I could relate to.
However, once your skill had increased to a point where that creature's health and resistance were less than that of what you could do with your CDEF rifle, those Womp Rats become easy prey.

I think the real issue lies in what Anach wrote:

Anach wrote:Now with a level based game, we can only use those weapons and items made for our level, otherwise we'll be shooting ourselves in the foot. We also need to find specific spawns in specific areas if we wish to level up or have a challenge.

Had the weapons still required you to have developed a particular skill then you wouldn't have been bothered by the level. I loved SWG's emphasis on skills and wish they had retained that during the CU and NGE. I would rather they had matched weapons, clothing, armour etc. to a player's skill level rather than their combat level. For me that would be the best of both worlds: levels and skills.

Better yet is complex skill-combining and that's not something we see enough of these days.

gelfling wrote:[...once your skill had increased to a point where that creature's health and resistance were less than that of what you could do with your CDEF rifle, those Womp Rats become easy prey....

True. But in the context of the original game, it felt right, as opposed to easy kills of mobs that were once reasonably fearsome, such as the grauls and Force-wielding NPCs on Dantooine. I still can dredge up memories of my feelings of distaste the first time I hunted down a Force Crystal Hunter in the Combat Upgrade, and downing him in six shots.

Has anyone ventured back to Ft. Tusken the Squill Cave or any of the other classic dungeon-crawl sites since Chapter 7 went live? I'm curious about what SOE has done with them.

ya i killed over 2000 tuskins in the past week verry easy kills but u need to kill many to get the diff things to make a dumb doll